A raging wildfire that could become the largest in Arizona history is rekindling the blame game surrounding ponderosa pine forests that have become dangerously overgrown after a century of fire suppression.
Some critics put the responsibility on environmentalists for lawsuits that have cut back on logging.
Others blame overzealous firefighters for altering the natural cycle of lightning-sparked fires that once cleared the forest floor.
Either way, forests across the West that once had 50 trees per acre (half-hectare) now have hundreds, sometimes thousands, and much of the landscape is choked with tinder-dry brush.
The density of the growth has fueled immense conflagrations in recent years like the 525-square-mile blaze now burning in the Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest northeast of Phoenix.
"I think what is happening proves the debate," said state Sen. Sylvia Allen, a Republican from rural Snowflake.
In the past, a 30-square-mile fire was considered huge. "And it used to be the loggers got right on it. Never in the past have you had these huge fires."
Today, it's not uncommon for fires to exceed 150 square miles.
http://nation.foxnews.com/arizona-wildfire/2011/06/10/environmentalists-blamed-az-wildfires
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This story is nonsense of course. You can't attribute a single wildfire to man.
Wildfires have occurred throughout history in natural cycles before man existed.
It is arrogant to claim man can cause wildfires when nature is so much bigger than man.
I personally blame the wildfires on the increase in CO2 plant food which has made these trees grow too big and dry.
here's the problem (once again) ... when you go and research the challenges to fuel reduction projects and logging permits in AZ very few were or have been challenged. Literally in the single digit of percents and in the last 10 years only handful again single digits went as far as the courts and none of these come close to the area in acreage involved in this fire. In that NF alone there were/are in excess of 5,000 cutting/logging permits issued. So once again the non-thinking scapegoating of 'environmentalists' is nothing more than non-thinking Talk Radio nonsense unsupported by the facts.
ReplyDeleteHas anybody considered that giant fire ball in the sky ... what was it called again? Oh yes, the SUN! Maybe that has something to do with it?
ReplyDelete(I'm being ironic here: of course I know it's called the sun. I write this because environmentalists don't get irony).
In Australia there were opinion writers in mainstream media who blamed the greenies for bushfires because they supported trees - no kidding!
ReplyDeleteThe implication being that if you raze all the forests on earth there will be no forest fires. Ban trees, save the world.
Hmmm that should read:
ReplyDeleteBan Trees, Save the Forests!
Cutting down more trees is a good idea Sou, but not one that's going to catch on while a train driver is in charge of the IPCC
ReplyDeleteCutting down all the trees to prevent forest fires may not be such a bad idea. Didn't the great and terrifying Ronald Reagan say "Trees cause more pollution than automobiles do."? Besides, trees are called nature's air conditioners, which must mean that they pump out a lot of heat, just like the mechanical air conditioners that are placed strategically close to urban weather stations. Cutting them down will cool the planet.
ReplyDeleteSome go-gooders also say that people cause wildfires. This is impossible. We know that for millions of years, it has been known that wildfires lag lightning, therefore it is impossible for wildfires to be started in any other way. Oh, yes... Just remembered. Volcanoes can start 'em too.
Especially communist volcanoes.
I wouldn't like to see a wilfire as i hear those are too hot, I don't mind of ordinary fires that burn smoothly like a well oied feller buncher having a ajor malmfunction. But i suspeft I will see one somedayu since ive seen plenty forsests.
ReplyDeleteRE:astral student
I believe the Geronimo Marswill Institute will shortly be releasing a report in which they demonstrate conclusively that forest fires are beneficial to both man and nature. Fires create smoke which blocks out harmful UV rays that were infamously created by environmentalists back in the 1980s. The report is authored by a group of elderly professors so distinguished that they are only a lifetime acheivement award away from incontinence and terminal dribbling.
ReplyDeleteInferno,
ReplyDeleteThank you for raising this important issue. I have long suspected that the apparatchiks of the Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest Service would try something like this.
A closer inspection of the photograph you provide reveals some worrying discrepancies. Note that the colour of the car tail-lights in the foreground is the same as the "fire". Coincidence? And are those really ponderosa pines? They look suspiciously like Graybill stripbark bristlecones to me, and some of them are upside down.
I would like to see Briffa try using those treemometers. It just shows that the whole "science" of dendrochronology is built on quicksand.
The Baron is right-on to bring up the SUN. Personally, I suspect that what we are seeing here is due to a natural increase in cosmic rays as the sun orbits through the Galactic spiral arm. Those cosmic rays can pack a punch - remember the Tunguska event? Those who ignore the past, do so at their peril. To be forewarned is to be armed. Lock and load I say. It is time to make a stand against the Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest Service.
Dirk,
Blog Science Expert Reviewer
54 posts to Blog Professorship
Another cause we should consider is underground volcanoes. It is very hot in Earth's interior: many millions of degrees Calvin!
ReplyDeletechek said...
ReplyDeleteI suspect (and often, that's enough) that the ICCCP has been panicked by the decade of cooling presaging the imminent ice age, and has been ordering their ditto heads to sneak out into the forests and set them ablaze in a last ditch attempt to maintain global temperatures.
It's surely no coincidence that Jones has confirmed the statistical significance of warming within weeks of these current fires being laid.
This blog is an excellent example of the power of blog science. Within 24 hours of being alerted by the ever-vigilant Inferno, our team of amateur scientists have already come up with a range of excellent explanations for the "fires". They could be due to underground volcanoes, lightning, the sun, cosmic rays, ICCCP operatives (possibly in connivance with the Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest Service), or (more likely) a combination of all of these factors.
ReplyDeleteAnd the fact that, as chek points out, Phil Jones was seen loitering in the area shortly before the fires started, is another indication that the conspiracy runs deep.
Also, I did a bit of sleuthing myself. I used google maps to download the alleged 525 sq miles of affected land, and I discovered that some of this area is covered by rivers! Is the ICCCP saying that rivers are on fire?! If you appropriately correct for the area of the rivers (I can provide an R script and the input data if you are interested), the affected area drops to 524.12 square miles. So much for the much vaunted computer skills of the Hockey Team.
Dirk,
Blog Science Expert Reviewer
53 posts to Blog Professorship
Please excuse replying to my own post, but I have some interesting new results to report. My previous comments on the areal extent of the "fires" was based on pixel counting of river areas from Google maps. However, I didn't correct for pixel area distortion caused by projection effects. I've since updated my R scripts to take this into account, and the area drops still further, to 524.09 square miles. It is interesting how every correction to the Team's analysis leads to a lessening of the "fire" alarmism.
ReplyDeleteAnd when I reported my results to the Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest Service they simply issued a "clarification" and said that the "fire area is approximately 525 square miles". Note that my role in alerting them to the problem with the data was not mentioned at all. Also note that they didn't say "approximately 524 square miles", but deliberately erred on the high side even though 524.09 is closer to 524 than 525.
Dirk,
Blog Science Expert Reviewer
52 posts to Blog Professorship
The "rivers on fire" fiasco from the Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest Service is going from bad to worse. They are refusing to acknowledge that my email alerting them to the problems, sent at 14 June 2011 at 15:34, predated their internal decision to qualify the "fire" area with "approximately".
ReplyDeleteI, for one, am keenly interested in how the Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest Service originally got to its 525 square mile figure. Unfortunately, in keeping with execrable Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest Service practices, the supporting documents for the press release were not made available at the time of the original announcement. (Only the Summary was made available at the time.) This showed one worrying aspect of the announcement. The report was based on ‘scenarios’ and the ‘525 square mile” scenario in the lead sentence of their press release was not representative of their scenarios, but the absolute top end. This sort of press release is not permitted in mining promotions and it remains a mystery to me why it is tolerated in academic press releases or press releases by international institutions.
The underlying report was scheduled for release on June 12 and was released on schedule. Naturally, I was interested in the provenance of the 525 square mile scenario and in determining precisely what due diligence had been carried out by the Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest Service to determine the realism of this scenario prior to endorsing it in their press release. I hoped against hope that it would be something more than an ICCCP cover version of a Greenpeace study but was disappointed.
Everyone in the Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest Service should be terminated and, if the institution is to continue, it should be re-structured from scratch.
Dirk,
Blog Science Expert Reviewer
51 posts to Blog Professorship
Shocking Dirk, truly schocking!
ReplyDeleteI demand that the Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest Service releases all their code and data, and send the computers and staff involved to me on their own expense (because obviously I cannot be expected to run their code by myself and on my own computer).
Any failure to adhere to my modest demands will be considered as evidence of wrongdoing.
chek said...
ReplyDeleteIt seems to me Dirk that what you've uncovered here is that the ASNF acreage estimation algorithms tend to always produce that convenient uptick in their favour (the blade) for their area calculations.
Now where have we seen that before?
A damn good auditing by the Baron is long overdue.
Baron and chek, thank you for your support and your insightful comments on the Rivers of Fire Fiasco from the Nashnull Forest Service.
ReplyDeleteIn a worrying development I've noticed that not only are the ASNF refusing to acknowledge my contributions, there is evidence of plagiarism of my ideas. E.g., a google search for my phrase "not permitted in mining promotions" uncovered three hits post-dating my usage, none of theme pointing back to Inferno's blog! Try it for yourself. I suspect that the tentacles of the ASNF spread further than we realize.
Dirk,
Blog Science Expert Reviewer
50 posts (half way!) to Blog Professorship
I am, as usual, in awe of the evidence presented here of the power of citizen science. I hope to formulate my own hypothesis based on a wilful ignorance of facts and then conduct a study to prove myself wrong. My last attempt involved the wilful mispositioning of temperature stations, but sadly, I was beaten to publication by an identical study conducted by other citizen scientists.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I now have a theory that these stations have been deliberately placed in wilderness areas where being cooked in forest fires will result in erroneously high temperatures being recorded, thus falsifying the temperature record in the modern era. The perfidity of the alarmists can never be underestimated.
I am APPALLED at the amount of coverage this has received on the MSM! This mere 525 sqm (probably much less as Dr Hartog has published here) represents only 0.0035% of the TOTAL forest cover on our planet. A planet which the GOOD LORD gave to us to use how ever we bloody-well-please.
ReplyDeleteI DEMAND balance! How can a mere TRACE forest have bearing on anything!
SHAME FOX NOOZE, SHAME!!
Excuse me, my head hurts and it's time for my nap.
Sir Humphrey makes an important discovery! The land area on fire is only 0.0035% of the earth's land area. Know what else is 0.0035% yet has outrageous lamestream media coverage? CO2 in the atmosphere. Coincidence - I think not!
ReplyDeleteJohn McCain said the fires were started by illegal immigrants. He did not identify who they were but I will: commie ICCCP infiltrators trying to gin up effects of global warming!
ReplyDeleteIt was awfully hot in my backyard the day before ýestyrday, and so it is today, so where's the warming??? No burning forestss yet here bur them are over the border. The lawn is watered. Regardsa astral student.
ReplyDeleteI am, as usual, in awe of the evidence presented here of the power of citizen science. I hope to formulate my own hypothesis based on a wilful ignorance of facts and then conduct a study to prove myself wrong. My last attempt involved the willful mispositioned of temperature stations, but sadly, I was beaten to publication by an identical study conducted by other citizen scientists.
ReplyDeleteIt was awfully hot in my backyard the day before ýestyrday, and so it is today, so where's the warming???
ReplyDeleteIn that NF alone there were/are in excess of 5,000 cutting/logging permits issued. So once again the non-thinking scapegoating of 'environmentalists' is nothing more than non-thinking Talk Radio nonsense unsupported by the facts.
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ReplyDeleteYou know that one of the worst things for environment is the wildfire in forests?? not only flora is lost, but also the habitats of animals and all that affects all the food cycles
ReplyDeleteThe inhabitants of North America before the Europeans came intentionally burned the forest floors which made it much better for hunting when the fresh new grass came up, which the deer and the elk enjoyed eating. This also kept the forest from burning hot because the brush and grasses were not stacked up for year after year. With all of the brush that is left to accumulate without control now allows the heat to get so hot that it sterilizes the earth, The controlled fires burn cool. The Blackfeet got their name because they set fires to drive out game and to free up the forest floor for forage. They had it right.
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ReplyDeleteAlso note that they didn't say "approximately 524 square miles", but deliberately erred on the high side even though 524.09 is closer to 524 than 525como emagrecer
ReplyDeleteAnd when I reported my results to the Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest Service they simply issued a "clarification" and said that the "fire area is approximately 525 square miles". Note that my role in alerting them to the problem with the data was not mentioned at all. Also note that they didn't say "approximately 524 square miles", but deliberately erred on the high side even though 524.09 is closer to 524 than 525.
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ReplyDeletefar as the courts and none of these come close to the area in acreage involved in this fire. In that NF alone there were/are in excess of 5,000 cutting/logging permits issued.
ReplyDeleteIf we talking about Environment then the you could easily blame developed nations.
ReplyDeletestudy to prove myself wrong. My last attempt involved the willful mispositioned of temperature stations, but sadly, I was beaten to publication by an identical study conducted by other citizen scientists
ReplyDeletemy role in alerting them to the problem with the data was not mentioned at all. Also note that they didn't say "approximately
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ReplyDeleterole in alerting them to the problem with the data was not mentioned at all. Also note that they didn't say "approximately 524 square miles", but deliberately erred on the high side even though 524.09 is closer to 524 than 52
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ReplyDeleteCutting down all the trees to prevent forest fires may not be such a bad idea. Didn't the great and terrifying Ronald Reagan say "Trees cause more pollution than automobiles do."? Besides, trees are called nature's air conditioners, which must mean that they pump out a lot of heat, just like the mechanical air conditioners that are placed strategically close to urban weather stations. Cutting them down will cool the planet.
ReplyDeleteSome go-gooders also say that people cause wildfires. This is impossible. We know that for millions of years, it has been known that wildfires lag lightning, therefore it is impossible for wildfires to be started in any other way. Oh, yes... Just remembered. Volcanoes can start 'em too.
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